Re: allocation vs freedom
mwb@pacbell.net
Sun, 19 Oct 1997 09:24:18 -0700
Judy Zachariasen wrote:
>
> Dave wrote (among other things):
> >
> >There is another type of repeater who affects our computation
> >of "private demand", and that's the guy (or woman) who is on
> >the list, but takes a trip on someone else's permit while
> >waiting for his own permit. When this guy shows up to launch
> >his own trip, he may have waited 8 years (or whatever) to get
> >his permit, but he hasn't waited 8 years to access the river.
> >One could say that he's only waited the amount of time since
> >his last trip. So in computing "average time that private permit
> >holders waited", we should should only count the time since the
> >permit holder was last on the river.
> >
>
> I think this is, or touches on, a good point that has been largely ignored.
> It derives from the fact that the private and commercial sectors are really
> two different entities, which is why I think they should be organized
> differently. People in the two groups are not asking for the same thing.
> Commercial peeps want a family vacation on an organized tour; privates on
> the waiting list want to be leaders of a trip where they choose all the
> participants. It's not really appropriate to compare the two and suggest
> they should be treated as the same thing. It's not right to compare waiting
> list people with commercial passengers. It's more reasonable to compare
> people on the roster of private trips (only one of whom was on the waiting
> list) with commercial passengers. Many of these people did not "wait" any
> more than a commercial passenger. Someone with a permit called them up and
> said "wanna go on a river trip?," and they said yes. So, while the leader
> may have experienced anguish waiting for ten years for his or her permit to
> come up, a large proportion of the actual group on the private trip
> experienced none and did less planning and organizing and waiting than the
> commercial passenger who had to book a trip a year in advance. If you
> really want to dump commercial peeps and privates in the same pool and have
> them follow the same rules, it seems only fair to insist then that every
> person on the private roster be on the waiting list, not just the leaders.
> If privates want to have their wait as short as a commercial peep's wait,
> then they should organize their trip that far in advance (3.6 years or
> whatever) and have everybody on the trip be on the list. There would be the
> same options for cancellations that commercial passengers have, which
> probably means at some point people have to forfeit a deposit.
>
> Take that one and run with it, folks. Actually, I think it's probably
> unmanageable, but I do think it serves to illustrate that it's not right to
> compare the people on the private waiting list with commercial passengers
> as if they were apples and apples when they're not. The fact remains,
> privates on the list and commercial passengers are looking for two totally
> different things, thus they should not be subjected to the same exact
> system.
>
> Another two cents, but I will NOT go overboard this time in responding to
> every reaction to this.
>
> Just to put my position in perspective, so people can see where my biases
> are or aren't, so you don't all dump on me: in the Grand Canyon, at the
> moment, I'm just a private boater waiting for a permit, not a commercial
> passenger or boatman. I have been a commercial guide elsewhere. In the
> Grand Canyon, I have been a paying passenger on a commercial trip (in 1980
> - that's what sent me to whitewater school and commercial guide-dom). I
> have gone down as the guest of a guide on a commercial trip. I have been on
> two private trips where the permit holders waited the full 7 or 8 years for
> their permit to come up (summer trips)- one trip I knew about well in
> advance and planned for, the other was much more last minute (well, last 2
> months, anyway). I have been on one private trip where the permit holder
> called in for a cancellation (winter trip). I've never called in and gotten
> a permit from a cancellation. Actually I have never had a permit myself and
> am on the list, with one trip down towards getting booted off it. OK? Now,
> those experiences cover just about every way to get on the Canyon except
> being a commercial guide there - and having my own permit. So, I think I'm
> coming from a pretty broad perspective. And I am therefore trying to see
> all sides of this issue. I may have failed at that goal, but I think it
> would behoove us all if we all TRIED to think about these issues from all
> perspectives not just one.
>
> Well, damn, will ya look at that - I just called while composing this and
> got a cancellation. Halleluia, brother - and I took it too. Now I'll get a
> look at that perspective too. Whadda ya know? And, who knows, I may be here
> looking for participants if I can't find anyone to go with me. (Better get
> my private roster together and make sure they're all on the list,eh?)
>
> I'm in a good mood now!
>
> Tootles, Judy
>
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Good for you Judy! PhD and a permit. When's the trip??
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