Re: [ncc-charter] why the replacement method is better.

From: Dany Vandromme (
Date: Mon Aug 21 2000 - 09:15:46 PDT

  • Next message: Kent Crispin: "Re: [ncc-charter] why the replacement method is better."

    I start doubting that we get to a consensus within this small group!
    I am trying to answer Milton anyway!

    On Mon, 21 Aug 2000, Milton Mueller wrote:
    > Kent Crispin wrote:
    > > The adcom members, on the other hand, have stood for election on their
    > > own merits. They are not riding anyone's coattails.
    > But you conveniently overlook the fact that the 4th and 5th Adcom members LOST the
    > election; that is, they may have received less than 10% of the eligible vote. And
    > you overlook the fact that people who do not like a replacement candidate can
    > refuse to vote for the main candidate on that basis. The "coattails" argument is
    > false.
    4th and 5th did not loose the election, since they are elected as AdCom
    > > > And it means that replacement elections are biased,
    > > > because in one case we vote for five candidates and in replacement elections
    > > > we vote for one candidate.
    > >
    > > ???
    > >
    > > In fact, the replacement elections would be between as many candidates
    > > as would stand for the NC position -- there could be a large number.
    > Two of the five regions will not be able to vote for candidates in their own
    > region (because they are already represented on the NC), so their votes will more
    > strongly affect the outcome in other regions.
    Indeed. That's why the vote's result is not based only on geographical
    distribution, but also on individual's skills or merits.
    > > > And as Vany has pointed out, in various ways the
    > > > replacement election will undo the results of the first election.
    > >
    > > Don't know what you are referring to.
    > Very simple. If another LAC candidate runs for the NC, then Vany could be unseated
    > from Adcom before her elected term is up. I find this destabilizing and
    > unnecessary. Why should an election to replace Kathy also end up replacing Vany?
    > Same could happen to Dany of Europe. What is the point? Why should the resignation
    > of one NC/Adcom member from one region create the need for a full-fledged election
    > that can undo the results of a previous election?
    To avoid that, my suggestion was that candidates would be admitted only
    for the empty AdCom seat. Other regions have already an AdCom
    representative. From the three Adcom members, the vote should also decide
    who is getting on the NC. Then you have not the problem of kicking off
    someone before the end of the mandate.
    > > > And don't you think that if Zakaria must resign,
    > > > that the voters who elected him will be happier if his replacement is from
    > > > Africa and picked by him rather than, say, the US?
    > >
    > > 1) The people who voted for Zakaria will have opportunity to vote, and
    > > if they vote as a block for another candidate, that would still be
    > > decisive.
    > No, because their votes would be diluted relative to the two regions that are
    > already represented. In this case, for example, if most AP members voted
    > differently, the African votes would be drowned out easily.
    You are focusing too much on the NC seat, and not enough on the AdCom
    > > 2) Once again: you assumption is that voting is purely regional, and your
    > > proposal is designed to further that form of factionalism.
    > No, my proposal is not based on that assumption at all, although if you look at
    > the recorded results you will find out that that is exactly what has happened. My
    > proposal is designed to minimize the effects of factionalism, whether regional or
    > otherwise.
    > > > The main point of the replacement candidate is that the balance of power in
    > > > an election with five candidates is completely different from an election
    > > > with one candidate.
    > >
    > > Where did this come from? You simply aren't making sense. There are as
    > > many candidates as chose to run, and they can come from three regions --
    > > precisely the three regions that don't already have a NC rep. The other
    > > two regions can't elect ANOTHER NC rep.
    > That's precisely the point. They can't vote for a member of their own region,
    > therefore they will have more influence in choosing the candidate from the other
    > three regions. Think more carefully about this, and do the math.
    Think also about the possible merits of the candidates, rather than doing
    only maths, to guide the voters
    > > > In an election with one candidate, the outcome will be
    > > > determined by whichever faction has a simple majority -- this is true
    > > > whether the faction is a geographic region or some other. In an election
    > > > with five candidates, the votes are distributed more widely, it is harder to
    > > > dominate, the results will be more diverse. So the replacement candidate
    > > > allows the results of the five-candidate election to be preserved.
    > > >
    > > > I have not heard a single comment that overcomes this objection.
    > >
    > > The objection has no relationship to reality.
    > Still waiting...rhetorical fluff like this just indicates that you have no
    > answer.
    I do apologize that the consensus (rather than compromise), is so
    difficult to reach.
    Furthermore, it may be better that the discussion should be handled by
    other people than Milton (he will certainly be candidate for NA), Vanyand
    myself (both are already members of AdCom, and somehow natural candidates
    for the NC seat also).
    Why don't we agree to leave the discussion floor to more neutral

    Dany VANDROMME | Directeur du GIP RENATER

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